Re: What if TRIM issued a wipe on devices that don't TRIM?

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Hi,

I am more of a SCSI guy than ATA so forgive where I am ignorant.

The SCSI equivalent to TRIM is called UNMAP.
UNMAP is unfortunately only a "hint" to the device so if the device
for any reason
is busy,   it can just do a NO-OP, leave the data as is and still
return status SUCCESS.
That is not good if you want to wipe data for confidentiality reasons :-)

As UNMAP and TRIM are related make sure that TRIM actually provides a
guarantee to wipe the
data. I do not know ATA enough to know if it does or not.

In SCSI, instead of using UNMAP/TRIM  you can use WRITESAME10/16 which
can be used
and which does providde an overwrite/wipe guarantee. Maybe ATA has
something equivalent to
WRITESAME10/16.

I just want to say: be careful, sometimes these commands do not
provide a guarantee that they will actually
make the data overwritten/unretrievable.

ronnie sahlberg


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 4:24 PM Robert White <rwhite@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> (1) Automatic and selective wiping of unused and previously used disk
> blocks is a good security measure, particularly when there is an
> encryption layer beneath the file system.
>
> (2) USB attached devices _never_ support TRIM and they are the most
> likely to fall into strangers hands.
>
> (3) I vaguely recall that some flash chips will take bulk writhes of
> full sectors of 0x00 or 0xFF (I don't remember which) were second-best
> to TRIM for letting the flash controllers defragment their internals.
>
> So it would be dog-slow, but it would be neat if BTRFS had a mount
> option to convert any TRIM command from above into the write of a zero,
> 0xFF, or trash block to the device below if that device doesn't support
> TRIM. Real TRIM support would override the block write.
>
> Obviously doing an fstrim would involve a lot of slow device writes but
> only for people likely to do that sort of thing.
>
> For testing purposes the destruction of unused pages in this manner
> might catch file system failures or coding errors.
>
> (The other layer where this might be most appropriate is in cryptsetup
> et al, where it could lie about TRIM support, but that sort of stealth
> lag might be bad for filesystem-level operations. Doing it there would
> also loose the simpler USB use cases.)
>
> ...Just a thought...
>
> --Rob White.
>
>



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