back on topic... Re: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students?
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Jeff Kinz wrote:
Jeff -- please reexamine your 20 line reply to the 4 lines Jay took to recommend Perl in minimal use, to complement an instruction in the Bash shell.On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 08:33:48AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote:Jeff,I don't know why you are so adamant against Perl?Excuse me? Nice try Jay, but nowhere in this thread did I say I was "adamant against Perl" If anything I have praised it highly.(Re-writing history is a sleazy thing to do, please stop it.) Per the praising Perl, In this thread I have said these positive things about Perl: "Perl (while wonderful) is not designed to be used interactively." "while Perl one liners are wonderful things and can be very useful" "Perl is wonderful." "Perl one-liners are great," "(With all due respect to Dr Maher, because Perl is truly wonderful, no question)" Thats is five separate statements all praising Perl. ( please remove your head from whatever dark place it was stuck in. ;-) Now - back to the point of the original thread, which you seem to have forgotten: "Why bash rather than ksh or Perl?" High school students (and others) who are learning about *NIX should use bash over ksh for reasons of availability and compatibility. High school students (and others) who are learning about *NIX should learn bash before learning Perl for reasons of ease of use, ease oflearning and higher utility, (eg , Perl is not a command shell)There is no question that in Unix the command line rules.Then there is no point to talking about this further, right? (sigh)But I was only pointing to the fact that as you teach or show students a subject, Let's say shell scripting, it might be a good idea to start at the beginning but also show how farone can go.No, you didn't say that, you said: "That being said, these are also the roots of Perl. So starting with the basics (grep, awk, sed) is fundamental even for .sh." Which I had no argument with. The issue we are addressing is that when I said:Perl (while wonderful) is not designed to be used interactively. You need one of the command shells for that. One can try to use Perl as a shell, but it quickly becomes apparent that the need to have everything be a complete program is much more awkward than the "command line" mode of the shellsYou replied:This is not true.To which I responded pointedly, with examples showing how bash/sh is easier to use (less awkward) than Perl. To which you responded that I was adamant against Perl, which is utter crap, and shows that you either lost track of the issue being discussed or were just attempting a sleazy "smear the debater" technique implying that I don't like Perl. ( I do like Perl((I like Python even better :-) ))In your example you use "egrep -i "^it" < file | wc ", now wouldn't it be great if you were to explain where "egrep" came from? Andwhat else "egrep" can do?Jay, when I teach shell scripting courses I do explain grep/egrep/fgrep and many other commands etc ad nauseum, but it would hardly make sense to include my entire course on shell scripting in this email thread, now would it?You see shell scripting is nothing more thengrouping predefined functions together.Really. Imagine what a shock that must be to me, someone who has been using *NIX since 1981. ;-)I see Perl as a successful accumulation of all of these languages or utilities. On one hand you have head and tailand on the other you have Perl.Congratulations on your insight. I see that you have read one of the many historical explanations for how Perl evolved or came into being, the best ones having been written by Larry Wall, the author of Perl. ;-) I'm done with this thread. Please enjoy your scripting and Perl programming and all your other futureefforts.
My respected instructor, Dr. Tim Maher will be publishing a great bookfrom Manning called "Minimal Perl" <http://manning.com/Maher> . Minimal Perl is an attempt to show readers the effectiveness of whatPerl can do with as little as one line of code.
Jay, while Perl one liners are wonderful things and can be very useful, they are not as "minimally useful" nor as easy to use nor as easy tounderstand as bash/sh command lines. (With all due respect to Dr Maher, because Perl is truly wonderful, no question)
For example, word count on a file: "wc file"Perl, of course, can do this in one line as well.
Is it as easy to understand? No Is it as easy to type? No Inside the Perl shell can you go back to that line and edit it to something more complex, like count how many lines begin with "it" something like this?:egrep -i "^it" < file | wc
No. Perl is wonderful. Perl one-liners are great, but Perl is not a shell.It lacks the features which make command shells the best place to use *NIX from.
I challenge you to try to stop using your command shell. For one hour do everything from within Perl, or with only Perl one-liners, using none of the command shell features (like command line editing). See if you feel like you have been more or less productive. -----------(end quote)----------- I found your comments a bit harsh, childish (No, no, no...), and off topic. I thought Jay put it quite nicely in asking "why are you so adamant against Perl?" -- to which you replied another near 50 lines (and quoted lines) again in what I felt to be a harsh, childish, and off topic manner by turning the thread into your own critical rant, with closing attempt to get "the last word in". Please... Let's just all be considerate to choose our words carefully, and realize that criticism/sarcasm doesn't carry well in emails. Now, does anyone want to address the original question (besides me)?(quote) "What book or other resource would people recommend for introducing high school students to the bash shell?" (/quote)
-- bwiese[at]cotse.com | brianwiese.net | 402.297.9392 "What we do in life echoes in eternity" - Gladiator _______________________________________________ Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: <https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn>
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