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Re: Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

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Hi,
Am Dienstag, den 27.01.2009, 09:30 +0100 schrieb Tobias Stöber:> Moin, moin,> > ... and sorry Barry that I've to correct you on some parts of your > summarization ;) I hope you don't mind.> > BOUWSMA Barry schrieb:> > Certainly. Just as a background, for the one or zero persons who> > care,the situation in germany can be vaguely described thus: There> > exist national public service, regional public> > service,national/regional private commercial, and local broadcasters.> > So what do you mean with local broadcasters? Or what is the difference > in regional private versus local?> > >  In general, the local and private broadcasters focus theirattention> > on large markets (Berlin, Frankfurt/Main, Hamburg,München, and so> > on), and are not to be found so much outsidethese limited regions --> > with exceptions, like in Oberbayernfrom the Wendelstein, but while> > the public service broadcastershave a remit to reach the general> > population, the privatebroadcasters have chosen to focus their> > financial investmentin those markets where they can reach a larger> > audienceshare for little investment.  That is, the RTL and> > Pro7Sat1families can be seen in, say, Hamburg, but far from> > thesemetro areas, you are pretty much limited to a subset of> > thepublic broadcasters.> > That is partially correct. The real reason is in the structure and > history of the German broadcasting market and the introduction of DVB -T > services in different stages.> > After the World War II the western Allies decided to organise > broadcasting similar to that of the BBC (and also a bite like networks > in the US) and give West-Germany a structure of federal states, which > became responsible for broadcasting. Therefore the national government > in Berlin is in most parts not responsible for broadcasting (apart from > public service that is financed from there like Deutsche Welle radio & > tv). The idea behind that was, that the broadcasters should be free from > interference from the government and managed as an independent public > service.> > All decisions and legislation have to be made in the 16 federal state > parliaments (and sometimes the Bundestag to), e.g. the > "Rundfunkfinanzierungsstaatsvertrag" (State Treaty on the Financing of > Broadcasting).> > This law btw required people living in Germany to pay a broadcasting fee > if they possess a radio oder tv set. This fee is use to finance the > public-law broacasting services (like the stations organized in the ARD, > ZDF, national radio service Deutschlandfunk/Deutschlandradio  and some > other institutions). You'll be charged for the possession, nit for > actually listening or viewing these stations. I won't go into detail...> > First their existed only the federal public-law broadcasting system, > where a broadcasting institution was responsbile for one (or sometimes > more) federal state(s) / Bundesland. Apart from the where national radio > stations like Deutschlandfunk ... as we talk about DVB-T I will from now > one skip info on radio.> > These stations all are organised in the „Arbeitsgemeinschaft der > öffentlich-rechtlichen Rundfunkanstalten der Bundesrepublik Deutschland“ > (ARD) and have their own local programme (often refererred as he "third" > programme (das Dritte) and also contribute to a national programme > called "Das Erste" (oder sometimes also called "ARD").> > The leading role for a specific programme contribution rest with a > specific broadcaster (sometimes this changed between them). For > instance, the newscast "Tagesschau" or "Tagesthemen" are produced in > Hamburg and the station in lead is NDR. The political magazine "Report" > is produced and lead be either Bayrischer Rundfunk (BR), then called > "Report München" or SWR, then called "Report Mainz". The magazine "FAKT" >   is produced by MDR etc. pp.> > Later there was a national TV service establised, the ZDF with its > headquarters in Mainz and local studios in every federal state. This is > also resembled in the name "Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen" (second German TV).> > East Germany had a state controlled national service before 1990, with 2 > TV programmes and adopted the federal system after reunification. East > and West Berlin were served by SFB (Sender Freies Berlin) For the 5 new > federal states the NDR took over Meckelnburg-Vorpommern (as it was > already responsible for all other coastal regions in Niedersachen, > Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein), Brandenburg became the ORB > (Ostdeutscher Rundfunk Brandenburg), later merged with SFB to now RBB, > and the three other federal states are served by MDR (Mitteldeutscher > Rundfunk).> > There are then other public-law TV stations which result from > cooperation between broadcasters, e.g. KiKA (children channel, coop of > ARD and ZDF), 3sat (coop of ARD, ZDF, ORF from Astria and SRG swiss TV), > arte (coop between ARD, ZDF and France television) etc. or are part of > additional or digital bouqets (like ZDF.info, ZDF.doku, phoenix, > Eins.extra etc.).> > Interestingly there was the situation, that if you had only analogue > reception, you had to pay for e.g. 3sat and arte (broadcasting fee), but > could not receive them, because the were mostly broadcasting via > satellite or cable tv! This changed with switchover to DVB-T as they are > part of the relevant multiplexes.> > Later in the 80ies regulation allowed for privately owned TV station > which then formed. Today their are 2 large private broadcasting networks:> > RTLGroup: RTL, RTL II, VOX, SuperRTL and others> ProSieben-Sat1: ProSieben, Sat.1, Kabel Eins, N24 and others> > The stations must also be licensed in one of the federal states and are > required to broadcast are local/regional programme there(!), which > results in the fact, that on DVB-T (and before on analogue TV) there are > programmes targeted to the region and which are not available on > satellite TV. For RTL in Niedersachen/Bremen there is a programme called > "Guten Abend RTL" between 18h00 and 18h30, or on Sat.1 there is then a > programme called "Sat1 - 17.30 live NDS/Bremen" between 17h30 and 18h00.> > http://www.rtlregional.de/> http://hannover.1730sat1.de/> > The private stations emerged before German unification, therefore they > were only present in western Germany and West-Berlin. After unification > they did - to my knowledge - not offer analogue service in Eastern Germany.> > When the switchover from analogue to digital started, it began in > metropolitan area like Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, and parts with more > population like e.g. Hannover/Braunschweig or Cologne, Düsseldorf etc.> > In all these areas there are at least the following multiplexes:> > * "ZDF Digital" with ZDF, 3sat, KIKA and ZDF doku (time sliced, calles > "Partagierung" in German) and another programme, mostly ZDF infokanal> > * "ARD/Das Erste" with Das Erste, arte, phoenix and one of the digital > ARD programmes like Eins.festival, Eins.extra etc.> > * "Dritte" (third programme multiplex) with the main third channel of > the relevant area (e.g. NDR in Niedersachsen/Hamburg/Schleswig-Holstein > and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, RBB in Berlin and Brandenburg, MDR in > Sachsen, Sachsen-Anhalt and Thürigen and so on) and 3 other programmes > of the surrounding federal states / public-law broadcasters of ARD> > * RTL-Group: RTL, RTL II, VOX and SuperRTL> > * Pro7-Sat.1 Group: Pro7, Sat.1, Kabel Eins and N24> > * at least one multiplex for other and regional private broadcasters, > which may contain all sorts of stations with space for at least 4 > programmes/stations, maybe more if they are time sliced> > Nationswide this often contains ComedyCentral and an example for a time > sliced space is DMAX + Bible Channel in Niedersachen.> > The introduction of DVB-T was in part funded with public aid money. The > EU commission criticised this as an illegal grant in respect to the > fact, that also private broadcasters like RTLGroup and Pro7Sat1 got > their expenses reimbursed.> > So the real reason for RTLGroup and Pro7Sat1 to not be present in DVB-T > regions that where switches in later phases of switchover are:> > - stopped funding (means costs would have risen)> - lack of interest (fewer viewer in rural areas compared to metropolitan > areas)> - stations were only required to be present where the were licensed and > had analogue service before> > Therefore we have large areas where they are not present (whole Eastern > Germany except Berlin, at lot of the south of Germany and rural parts of > large states like Niedersachen (Lower Saxony) and Nordrhein-Westfalen > (Northrhine-Westphalia) ... e.g. Cologne and Düsseldorf are have > RTL/Pro7 and Müsterland in NRW or Oldenburg in Niedersachsen hove not.> > There are then also some special local DVB-T phenomena, like radio > stations over DVB-T in Berlin or special projects like the private > "Leipzig 1" - multiplex which experiments with a small cell SFN nework > of low-power transmitters within a very small area (area of the city of > Leipzig) with 6 transmitters in that (Leipzig-Mitte, Leipzig-Messe, > Leipzig-Grünau, Leipzig-Markkleeberg and Leipzig-Lößnig). This project > does include TV and radio stations (Leipzig Fernsehen, Infokanal > Leipzig, BBC World, Bibel TV, Radio Horeb, Radio Leipzig).> > More info on that can be found on the website of Sächsische > Landesanstalt für privaten Rundfunk und neue Medien (SLM).> > http://www.slm-online.de/psk/slmo/powerslave,id,231,nodeid,231.html> > Maybe there are other such projects, that I don't know of, because I am > mainly interested in the area, where I live, work and travel, which is > mostly Niedersachen and the North, Sachsen-Anhalt, Sachsen, Thüringen, > Berlin and Brandenburg ;)> > > Of the national and regional public broadcasters, the DVB-Tsituation> > can be pretty much described as thusly... There is a truly national> > broadcaster, the second germanbroadcaster, ZDF, which has a multiplex> > known as ZDFmobilwhich is available nationally, and is identical> > whetherreceived in Flensburg or Passau (hey, no heckling, that wasa> > beloved train ride for me years ago). The other nominally national> > broadcaster, ARD, known as thefirst german broadcaster ("Das Erste"),> > suffers regionalisationboth through a local identity in a particular> > Bundesland,as well as a regional DVB-T multiplex management that> > doesnot always translate well to match those of neighbouringlands. > > This regionalisation is due to sub-management by a thirdparty, which,> > perhaps as a super-regional manager, isresponsible for more than one> > Bundesland (for our originalcase of Hamburg, this would be NDR,> > together with itsdaughter Radio Bremen).  These `third parties'> > takentogether form that first german broadcaster, as well ashaving> > their own distinct regional identities.> > See above, I am no sure about ZDF mux to be identical in the whole of > Germany but for Hamburg ONLY NDR is responsible and for Bremen and > Bremerhafen ONLY Radio Bremen is responsible.> > As DVB-T is regarded, there are work group in which alle partner, say > public-law and private broadcasting stations, the local media > authorities (Landesmedienanstalt) and the technical service providers > are present, which decide about technical parameters, transmitting sites > and parameters etc.> > For all other corrections see my first part of the intro ;)> > > The practical example of this would be that while onecan see the same> > content via ZDFmobil anywhere, theso-called ARD multiplex may> > contain, by region, EinsPlusor EinsFestival, or perhaps in that> > region, that regionalmanager's so-called ``Dritte'' (third, after ARD> > beingfirst and ZDF being second) programme.> > Not correct, the ARD-Das Erste multiplex does NOT contain regional > ("third") programmes! There is always a seperate multiplex for the > "third" programmes.
That is not fully true yet either and Barry is correct for FrankfurtRhein/Main and others.
Das Erste:602000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_2_3:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE:101:102:1hr-fernsehen:602000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_2_3:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE:401:402:65arte/EinsFestival:602000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_2_3:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE:201:202:70rheinmaintv:818000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_1_2:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCH
If you look at the patch Christoph has created now,
http://linuxtv.org/hg/dvb-apps/rev/98d3c06e5ef9
even Berlin has "Das Erste" and "RBB" on the same multiplex.
It seems we can say that there are separate muliplexes forregional/third programs of other states/Bundeslaender, but the ARD "DasErste" multiplex often contains the "third program" of thestate/Bundesland where the transmitter is located.
> > In other words, nationally, one can receive the ZDFmultiplex, plus> > two others, which will depend on howthe regional management has> > decided to configure theirmultiplexes.  Services such as Phoenix and> > `arte' willbe available nationally, while the `dritte' multiplexwill> > contain a selection of out-of-area regionals ofinterest due to> > geography or whatever.> > Correct. The out-of-area third programmes are selected due to georgraphy > and the fact, that a lot of people may work and or live in another > federal state (Bundesland) adjunct to the area.> > So in the NDR area of Hannover/Braunschweig there is NDR + MDR, HR and > WDR (which are the federal states, that border in this area.> > > Now, while ZDF has a unified national service, the sameis not> > necessarily true for what you can receive ina selected Bundesland.> > For example, in Hessen, dependingon where you are, you may be able to> > receive the localprogramming from the nearest Bundesland; in the> > southof Bayern you can see SWR Baden-Württemberg but temporarilynot> > Hessen (or the DVB-H which replaced it), while inthe north you will> > instead see `mdr', although you mayhave previously received SWR,> > which is the reason thatBad Mergentheim in BaWü, near the border,> > will need itsown DVB-T transmitter sometime this year.> > I don't get this info or what you want to really say into my head. So > what's your point?
I guess they else can't receive SWR anymore in that region.
> > Now, anyway, for the zero readers who care, that's mysummary of> > german public broadcasters approach to DVB-T.I'm happy to be> > corrected, because I'm an outsider.> > Well, hope I could clear some facts, although I am also an outsider.> > > So, anyway, there's been forces to cause merging of thedifferent> > regional broadcasters; NDR covers severalBundesländer, with Radio> > Bremen retaining a bit ofindependence; > > Radio Bremen is independent! But, because it covers a very small area, > therefore has a small budget (which results in Radio Bremen to get money > from the ARD's compenmsation fund) it is wise to closely cooperate with > NDR.> > It would be - just my opinion - a good idea, that the few very small > public-law broadcasting institution like SR (Saarländischer Rundfunk) > and Radio Bremen merge with others.> > For instance, there was the time, where a merger of Berlin and > Brandenburg (as federal states) were discussed (which later did not > happen, I don't want to discuss that further). But it had the effect, > that ORD and SFB merged to RBB, which is resonable, because a lot of > people commute between Berlin and its surroundings.> > > SWR has engulfed SWF and> > pretty-much-identical-save-for-a-few-half-hour-bits-here-and-thereprogramming> > can be seen on SWR-RP, SWR-BW, and evenSR from the Saarland.  This> > can probably be seen bylooking at the different frequency plans,> > although Iam too lazy and disinterested to do so now.  Anyway,the> > Genève frequency allocations look to be based ongeographical> > locations, independent of the regionalbroadcast administrator> > responsible.> > Well maybe, I don't know a lot about that.> > > What am I saying by all this tripe?  Well, there is aregional> > frequency allocation that is presently usedby the public service> > broadcasters, but so far hasseen spotty adoption by the local and> > commercialbroadcasters apart from a handful of larger metroregions,> > leaving most of the land by area dependentupon satellite reception> > for these programmes.> > See first part. A part from sat reception there is also a widespread > coverage with cable.> > > Now, as far as changes since Nov.2008, when a good numberof> > government drones were running about proclaiming thatthe digital> > switchover was complete, well, they weren'tquite right, but anyhow...> >  There haven't been, as far as I know, any changes sincenovember.> > There are planned changes to one multiplexfrequency in Aalen (BW) and> > introduction of a new DVB-Tsite in Bad Mergentheim (BW) and> > Garmisch-Partenkirchen(BY), if not more, and eventually, abandoning> > presentVHF frequencies, seen in Berlin, parts of Bayern, and asnoted,> > Hamburg, for example.> > The problem as such is, that in topographically flat areas like say > Hamburg it is difficult to sort out what stations you receive from what > transmitter site when actually using DVB-T.> > This may also be true for areas, where the borders of different federal > states meet, because you do not only receive your areas programmes and > transmitters but also other sites.> > To really verify those information you would have to rely on "official" > documents and maybe have access to a directional antenna (aerial), where > you could try to "locate" (or at least determine a direction) from where > you receive the mux.> > > If I ever get around to a more detailed study of eachBundesland, I'll> > offer more feedback, although I haven'treceived any concerning my> > proposed enhancements to B-Wsome months ago, so it may not matter...> > Well, the only I can do is, offering you my help on the areas that I > live and travel in.> > On the webpages of the different projects there are often very recent > and detailed technical information, which are sometime hard to find > within the website.> > The web pages and pdf files at dvb-t-nord.de are updated regularly and > seem (as much as I could check) to reflect the current status of > transmitters and parameters, e.g. Braunschweig (Brunswick) area again:> > http://www.dvb-t-nord.de/empfangsgebiete/media/111108_h_bs_parameter.pdf> > It does also contain information which out-of-area transmitters can be > received.> > Maybe you'll really have a deeper look because "DVB-T Nord" also covers > Hamburg and the whole NDR/Radio Bremen area.> > Regards, Tobias> 
Cheers,Hermann


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