Re: [PWE3] FW: LastCall: <draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point-03.txt>(Allocationof an Associated Channel Code Point for Use byITU-T Ethernet basedOAM) to Informational RFC

[Malcolm.BETTS@xxxxxxxxxx]

Tom,

I have no objections to using the RFC
2119 key words, I am not sure if that is appropriate in an informational
track document, I expect that our AD will provide some guidance.

Regards,

Malcolm

"t.petch" <daedulus@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

23/03/2012 05:50 AM

To	"Loa Andersson" <loa@xxxxx>, <Malcolm.BETTS@xxxxxxxxxx>
cc	<ietf@xxxxxxxx>
Subject	Re: [PWE3] FW: LastCall:        <draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point-03.txt>(Allocationof        an Associated Channel Code Point for Use byITU-T Ethernet        basedOAM)        to Informational RFC

Loa

The one point that jumps out at me is the proposed text
"Other message types should not be carried behind this code point."
or should that be
"Other message types SHOULD NOT be carried behind this code point."
which, in IETF-Land, is a bit different.

I prefer the latter.

Tom Petch


----- Original Message -----
From: "Loa Andersson" <loa@xxxxx>
To: <Malcolm.BETTS@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <ietf@xxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [PWE3] FW: LastCall:
<draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point-03.txt>(Allocationof an Associated
Channel
Code Point for Use byITU-T Ethernet basedOAM) to Informational RFC


> Malcolm,
>
> good that we are making some progress!
>
> On the experimental code point
> ------------------------------
>
> I doesn't seem appropriate to call out the fact that some commercial
> products has been using an experimental code point in production
> setting!
>
> On the remain (key) disagreements
> ---------------------------------
>
> I will let other people comment for now.
>
>
> /Loa
>
> On 2012-03-21 21:33, Malcolm.BETTS@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > Loa,
> >
> > Thank you for your comments and suggestions, please see in line
below.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Malcolm
> >
> >
> > ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx wrote on 12/03/2012 04:31:43 AM:
> >
> >  > Loa Andersson <loa@xxxxx>
> >  > Sent by: ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx
> >  >
> >  > 12/03/2012 04:31 AM
> >  >
> >  > To
> >  >
> >  > ietf@xxxxxxxx
> >  >
> >  > cc
> >  >
> >  > Subject
> >  >
> >  > Re: [PWE3] FW: Last Call: <draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-
> >  > point-03.txt>(Allocation of an Associated Channel
Code Point for Use
> >  > byITU-T Ethernet based OAM) to Informational RFC
> >  >
> >  > All,
> >  >
> >  > I've been asked to clarify thee comments in this mail,
I done
> >  > so by proposing new text to draft-betts-.
> >  >
> >  > I hope this helps.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > Title
> >  > =====
> >  >
> >  > Comment: We want to assign a Associated Channel Type.
The registry
> >  > that it will be assigned from is "Pseudowire
Associated Channel
> >  > Types"; however RFC 5586, makes the Channel Types
generic and I
> >  > think the title should be changed as follows:
> >  >
> >  > OLD:
> >  > Allocation of an Associated Channel Code Point for
Use by ITU-T
> >  > Ethernet based OAM
> >  >
> >  > NEW:
> >  > Allocation of an Generic Associated Channel Type for
ITU-T
> >  > MPLS-TP OAM
> >  >
> >  > Note: Neither MPLS-TP or OAM are in the RFC Editors
list of wellknown
> >  > acronyms, therfore the title probably should be:
> >  >
> >  > NEW:
> >  > Allocation of an Generic Associated Channel Type for
ITU-T
> >  > MPLS Transport Profile Operation, Maintenance and
Administration.
> >  >
> >
> > MB: No objection to this change
> >
> >  >
> >  > Introduction - first paragraph
> >  > ==============================
> >  >
> >  > In the first paragraph of the introduction, there
seems to be an
> >  > oddity in the description of the role of the ietf-tp-oam-analysis
> >  > document. Instead of:
> >  >
> >  > OLD
> >  > "tools defined by the IETF [I-D.ietf-mpls-tp-oam-analysis],
that
> >  > are intended to meet the OAM functional requirements
defined in
> >  > [RFC5860]."
> >  >
> >  > NEW:
> >  > "tools described by the IETF [I-D.ietf-mpls-tp-oam-analysis],
which
> >  > are used to meet the OAM functional requirements defined
> >  > in [RFC5860]."
> >
> > MB: No objection to this change
> >
> >  >
> >  > Intrduction - second paragraph
> >  > ==============================
> >  >
> >  > The next paragraph in describing G.8113.1, stumbles
over the current
> >  > vs anticipated future state of G.8113.1 and its relationship
to
> >  > its antecedents. I'm a bit un-certain about the correct
terminology,
> >  > but I think the following change would improve the
document.
> >  >
> >  > OLD:
> >  >
> >  > The ITU-T has documented, in draft new Recommendation
[G.8113.1], the
> >  > use of Ethernet based OAM mechanisms, originally defined
in [Y.1731],
> >  > carried in the MPLS Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh).
This approach
> >  > requires the allocation of an ACH Type from the registry
of ACH types
> >  > maintained by IANA in order that the messages that
will be described
> >  > in [G.8113.1] can be identified by an implementation.
> >  >
> >  > NEW:
> >  >
> >  > "The ITU-T has Draft Recommendation [G.8113.1]
documented MPLS OAM
> >  > which as of this writing is undergoing the ITU-T Traditional
> >  > Approval Process (TAP). This Recommendation builds
upon Ethernet
> >  > OAM as documented in [Y.1731]. The messages in [G.8113.1]
are defined
> >  > to be carried in a new Associated Channel Type in
the MPLS Generaic
> >  > Associated Channel (G-Ach). In order to carry these
messages in an
> >  > interoperable fashion, an Associated Channel Type
from the IANA
> >  > maintained registry "Pseudowire Associated Channel
Types is to be
> >  > used."
> >
> > MB: Since the draft will not be published as an RFC until after
G.8113.1
> > is approved we can directly reference the approved Recommendation
and I
> > suggest that we modify paragraph to:
> >
> >
> > ITU-T Recommendation [G.8113.1] documents MPLS OAM. This Recommendation
> > builds upon Ethernet OAM as documented in [Y.1731]. The messages
in
> > [G.8113.1] are defined to be carried in a new Associated Channel
Type in
> > the MPLS Generaic Associated Channel (G-Ach). In order to carry
these
> > messages in an interoperable fashion, an Associated Channel Type
from
> > the IANA maintained registry "Pseudowire Associated Channel
Types is to
> > be used."
> >
> >
> >  >
> >  > Note there are confusion around some of the Associated
Channel
> >  > acronyms that are refledted in this document.
> >  >
> >  > ACh is Associated Channel
> >  > ACH is Associated Chamnnel Header
> >  > G-ACh is Generic Associated Channel
> >  >
> >  > "ACH Type" is not used anywhere in IETF
documents; we talk about
> >  > Associated Channel Type or Generic Associated Channel
Type
> >  > (G-ACh Type).
> >
> > MB: Thank you, I will fix this.
> >
> >  >
> >  > Introduction - third paragraph
> >  > ==============================
> >  >
> >  > In the third paragraph, there seems to be an unnecessary
reference
> >  > to experimental types. When asking for a code point
for a standard,
> >  > it is not helped to bring up experimental code space.
Can we remove
> >  > the text reading:
> >  >
> >  > OLD:
> >  > "without continuing to resorting to the use of
an experimental
> >  > ACH Type,"
> >  >
> >  > NEW
> >  > -
> >
> > MB: I do not agree with the deletion of this text, these existing
> > deployments, and the desire to migrate to an allocated code point,
are
> > part of the rational for requesting the code point.
> >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > Section 2 - first paragraph
> >  > ===========================
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > In section 2, the first sentence refers to Ethernet
based OAM
> >  > messages. As far as I know, the messages in G.8113.1
are either
> >  > MPLS-TP OAM messages, or they are simply the OAM messages
defined
> >  > in G.8113.1. The simplest path to clarity would seem
to be to
> >  > replace "Ethernet based OAM messages" in
that sentence with
> >  > "messages".
> >  >
> >  > The second sentence of that paragraph does not seem
to say anything
> >  > we need to say. Can we remove it?
> >  >
> >  > OLD:
> >  >
> >  > The code point allocated by this document is intended
to be used only
> >  > for Ethernet based OAM messages, defined in the ITU-T
Recommendation
> >  > [G.8113.1], carried in the G-ACh . These Ethernet
based OAM messages
> >  > and procedures, address the OAM functional requirements
defined in
> >  > [RFC5860]. Other message types should not be carried
behind this code
> >  > point.
> >  >
> >  > NEW:
> >  >
> >  > The code point allocated by this document is intended
to be used
> >  > only for OAM messages, defined in the ITU-T Recommendation
> >  > [G.8113.1], carried in the G-ACh . Other message types
should not
> >  > be carried behind this Associated Channel Type.
> >
> >
> > MB: I do not agree with this proposed change. Other comments
request
> > that the restriction on the applicability of the code point is
> > strengthened so I propose the following:
> >
> > The code point allocated by this document should only be used
for OAM
> > messages, defined in the ITU-T Recommendation [G.8113.1], carried
in the
> > G-ACh. The messages and procedures carried behind this code point,
are
> > restricted to only those that the address the OAM functional
> > requirements defined in [RFC5860]. Other message types should
not be
> > carried behind this code point.
> >
> >
> >  >
> >  > Section 2 - second paragraph
> >  > ============================
> >  >
> >  > A matter of some clarity, can we change this paragrap
like this:
> >  >
> >  > OLD:
> >  > This code point may be used on any transport construct
that uses
> >  > the G-ACh, e.g., MPLS-TP Sections, MPLS-TP LSPs or
PWs.
> >  >
> >  > NEW:
> >  >
> >  > The Generic Associated Channel Type assigned by this
> >  > document may be used on any transport construct that
uses the
> >  > G-ACh, e.g., MPLS-TP Sections, MPLS-TP LSPs or PWs
as specified
> >  > by G.8113.1.
> >
> > MB: No objection to this change.
> >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > Section 2 - third paragraph
> >  > ===========================
> >  >
> >  > With regard to revisions, which is what I think the
third paragraph
> >  > is about, I am not clear what you are trying to say.
A code point
> >  > allocation must point to a stable referent. If the
desired referent
> >  > changes, then process needs to be followed to make
sure that the IANA
> >  > is updated in accordance with IETF procedures. Hence,
I am left to
> >  > the conclusion that the third paragraph is actually
asking for
> >  > something we can not do. Can we remove that?
> >  >
> >  > OLD:
> >  > All ITU-T Recommendations are subject to revisions.
Therefore, the
> >  > code point allocated by this document may be used
for future versions
> >  > of [G.8113.1].
> >  >
> >  > NEW:
> >  > -
> >  >
> >  >
> >
> > MB: I do not agree with the removal of this text:
> >
> > The intention of this statement is to bring to the attention
of the IETF
> > the normal practice in the ITU of developing amendments to
> > Recommendations to fully meet the functional requirements (e.g.
adding
> > pro-active loss measurement). Normally any reference to ITU-T
Rec
> > G.8113.1 will automatically be directed to the current version
> > (including any amendments).
> >
> > Only those interfaces that support G.8113.1 OAM will act on these
OAM
> > messages, any interface that does not support this G-ACh type
will
> > discard these OAM messages as defined in RFC5586.
> >
> > Restricting the application of the code point to a specific version
of
> > Recommendation G.8113.1 would require the ITU to deviate from
its normal
> > process for enhancing Recommendations and would put the IETF
back into
> > the discussion for approval.
> >
> >
> >
> >  >---------------snip
> >
> >
> >  >
> >  > Loa Andersson email: loa.andersson@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >  > Sr Strategy and Standards Manager loa@xxxxx
> >  > Ericsson Inc phone: +46 10 717 52 13
> >  > +46 767 72 92 13
> >  > _______________________________________________
> >  > Ietf mailing list
> >  > Ietf@xxxxxxxx
> >  > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
> >  >
>
> --
>
>
> Loa Andersson                
        email: loa.andersson@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sr Strategy and Standards Manager          
 loa@xxxxx
> Ericsson Inc                
         phone: +46 10 717 52 13
>                    
                     
    +46 767 72 92 13
>
>