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Laurie, I certainly understand that we may disagreements on certain specifics. But whether large or small, disagreements are usually healthy because they force us to really sharpen our positions, or modify them. As long as they're done in a respectful/civil manner. To be honest, neither you or David caused my irritation. I'm not going to name any names but I've had issues with this one particular poster before. While I feel he means well and is knowledgable, I've taken issue with his attitude towards me and my opinions. In doing so, my objective thought process is sometimes compromised when he's involved in a thread. To be fair, I'm interpreting his attitude. I'm the that could be reading more into it than there actually is. Anyway, I hope my position is clear now. When you get right down to it, we all really want the same thing. That being an ink with the same wide gamut as Epson ink being able to exhibit numerous decades of useful life on glossy, matte, lustre, canvas, and/or watercolor papers. --- Laurie Solomon <laurie@advancenet.net> wrote: > Mike, > > I was going to respond to your response to me; but put it off in order to > digest and think about what you wrote. Then, this exchange was posted. > Upon reading it, I decided that his was an appropriate place to make my > response, ignoring items particular to our exchange. > > First, I found this to be a very civil and reasonable exchange between you > and David. Secondly, on reading it, I have come to the conclusion that you > are both very close to agreement in substance and that maybe it is only > language which has created the apparent differences on those elements of > major significance. Thirdly, on reading your exchange, I realized that I > also was substantively in agreement with the two of you and that language > may have caused our apparent disagreement. > > Given this, I am not going to create trouble by going into the specifics of > our exchange and do a point by point of our hypothetical and illustrative > examples. I think that to do that would obscure our actual substantive > agreement and emphasize the superficial disagreements which could very well > be a matter of language and not substance. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-epson-inkjet@leben.com > [mailto:owner-epson-inkjet@leben.com]On Behalf Of Michael Greer > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 5:32 PM > To: epson-inkjet@leben.com > Subject: RE: Expected Life of Epson Ink + Archival Paper?? > > > > > --- David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b@dd-b.net> wrote: > > Michael Greer <mgreer942@yahoo.com> writes on 28 January 2000 at 06:46:53 > > -0800 > > > > > > > It looks to me like Generations inks and suitable papers *will* meet > > my needs. The informal tests look good, and formal tests are underway > > (in fact, results should be out by now; but then again Wilhelm's web > > site still says it'll be updated in August 1999, too :-) ). There is > > some modest evidence that ink + paper combinations that meet my needs > > exist. > > I'l also be eager to see the results. > > > > > The evidence I have about coatings is, roughly, that coatings have > > been informally shown to extend the life of Epson materials up to a > > couple of years so far, that they probably don't greatly reduce > > light-based fading, > > So far you're in total agreement. This is good. > > > that one friend has had problems with coated > > prints over longer terms (decade or so), > > I don't doubt it. > > > and that Wilhelm recommends > > against coatings for long lifespan, saying that in testing many > > coatings have degraded lifespan. > > MAYBE a slight disagreement. I need to read his exact position on this > again. I > thought I read that his position was that they are ineffective at extending > life. Period. I don't remember reading any qualifications (i.e. long > lifespan)to that statement. If he did, then I'm in error and I might not be > in > disagreement with him at all. > > > > > I have to consider two issues: Will coatings extend the life of an > > image on Epson materials up to where I need it, and will the alternate > > materials last as long as I need? > > Yes. Appropriate questions. The same ones that I've asked myself. Except > that > I'm now more satified wih other papers. But I'd love to get Epson ink and > these > other papers to where I need them. > > > A third question could be, would > > coatings on alternate materials make a combination that meets my > > needs? (I'd set 30 years as the minimum display life under > > home/office conditions that I would accept; this is an arbitrary > > decision on my part.) > > Another appropriate question. > > > > > I have to conclude that coatings will *not* extend the life of an > > image on epson materials to 30 years. > > I haven't concluded that yet, but it would not be a surprising result. > > > I don't have incontrovertible > > evidence for this (or for bloody much else; this whole thing is an > > exercise in using uncertain data), but here's my argument: The > > Wilhelm accelerated aging tests leave everything but light level > > essentially normal (better controlled). Therefore the fast fading > > they show in Epson prints is light-based fading. Coatings are not > > believed by anybody I know to make a big difference in light-based > > fading. So I don't think coatings will extend Epson materials out to > > my 30 years. > > I can't disagree with your logic. But I'm perplexed by is why has coating > worked so far (where unprotected have failed miserably) for those of us that > with used? What is the coating protecting the print from? > > > Will the alternate materials last that long by themselves? We're > > waiting for Wilhelm tests on the materials I'm using, but there > > certainly *are* alternate materials that meet my needs in Wilhelm > > tests (with a factor of four safety margin :-) ). That shows that it > > isn't a hopeless quest! Sunlit-window tests show Generations inks on > > a couple of "good" papers doing pretty darned well. I'm feeling > > reasonably confident that I'm in an acceptable place. > > Didn't I write that if an alternative existed for my purposes, then I too > probably WOULDN'T screw with it? In others words, WE AGREE! > > > Would adding a coating to my current ink and paper combination extend, > > reduce, or have no effect on life? This is the most speculative > > area. > > Yes, it is speculative. But if you're confident the unprotected print would > meet your needs, then why coat? Unless you like the finish, there is no > reason > for coating. The only reason I started doing it was because I liked the > finish > and it extended the life of my prints. If I didn't have I longevity issue to > begin with, I probably would have never coated in the first place. Using > this > logic, it stands to reason that if I find a paper/ink conbination that I > like > from an imaging stand point, and it also proves to last unprotected, then I > will probably stop coating. > > > > > First, if I'm reasonably confident in my materials alone, I'd say it's > > unwise to add another variable by adding a coating. > > We're on the same page. > > > > > Finally, we come to the point where, I think, we seem to rub each > > other the wrong way. You seem, to me, to be saying "Topcoats have > > been shown to extend print life." > > Yes, that is what I saying. BUT, I think I'm being careful to point out two > things. > 1) I'm only making this claim for the papers, inks, and coating that I've > personally used. > 2) I have no idea how long they will hold up. My only claim is that they've > outlasted unprotected prints by a wide margin thus far. > > > Within the terms of this discussion > > (I believe we're both accepting anecdotal evidence as being real), > > it's true that they have; several people have reported reasonable > > informal tests. > > > > However, you then seem to me to make the leap of thinking it's quite > > possible that this protection will continue for the indefinite future; > > NO! Dave, I've never said that or implied it. Some have assumed that that > was > being applied. I've been very careful to add "thus far" to my claims. You > made > wrote about some possibilities a few days/posts ago stating what could > happen > over time. Look them up, I totally agreed that these are definate > possibilities > and that I had no clue whether they would come to pass or not. So why are > you > writing for a second time about a leap of faith I seem to be taking when I > explicitly agreed with you the first time about not knowing what would > happen > in the futre? I'm taking NO leap of faith. I'm stating explicitly that I > HAVE > NO IDEA what will happen. > > > that we have no basis to make any sort of estimate of how much longer > > your sprayed prints might last. I think the evidence, such as it is, > > is solidly *against* this hypothesis. > > What hypothesis? The only theories I've presented in this thread is why I > think > the prints have lasted longer. I have not theorized, guesstimated, or > hypothesized how long these coated prints would last. I think I've gone out > of > my way to state that I have no clue. How else can I put it? > > > We have little reason to think > > coatings stop light-based fading, > > I agree. > > > *and* we have evidence for coatings > > damaging prints on long exposure (Ctein's report), > > But you're generalizing. There are many manufacturers and many different > === message truncated === ===== Visit my digital photography web site along with a lot of other interesting stuff at http://greer.simplenet.com. Also, Greer and Associates (http://www.greeraa.com) offers studio photography, digital imaging services, web site design/construction, and training. Mike Greer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com - Please turn off HTML mail features. Keep quoted material short. Use accurate subject lines. http://www.leben.com/lists for instructions.
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