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Royce, very interesting data on the MIS 6-color inks. Do I understand correctly that they are pigment based? I have been very unhappy with my tests of OEM ink on Somerset Velvet ... way too much dot gain ... absolutely unacceptable. So, although the data is impressive, I would love to see tests on a paper that does a better job on true photographic imaging. Any thoughts? Cathy -----Original Message----- From: owner-epson-inkjet@leben.com [mailto:owner-epson-inkjet@leben.com]On Behalf Of Royce Bair Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 5:54 PM To: epson-inkjet@leben.com; PJStreet@aol.com Subject: Pitiful 6-ink results - NOW where do we go? Pat <PJStreet@aol.com> wrote: >Thanks for the information, Royce. Good grief. NOW what do we do? >Pat > >Royce Bair wrote: > ><<Wilhelm's report had the following: > >EPSON STYLUS 3000 PRINTER (Lyson 4-ink Fotonic Inks) >Arches Cold Press Paper (tests in progress) >Somerset Velvet Paper (tests in progress) >Lysonic Standard Fine Art Paper 2-3 years >Epson Photo Paper (1998 "Improved" type) 2-3 years>> Pat, Like Cathy Brown said, "I had naively bought a 1200 and was patiently waiting for the Silver/ Fotonic inks to become available and planned to standardize on Luminos Preservation papers. Now I don't know what to do!" I wouldn't panic too much just yet. Remember, the Lysonic E inks were lasting >120 years on the Luminos Lumijet DW Premium Glossy and Tapestry X papers, so there's a good chance they should last at 30-40 years with the 6-ink Silver inks. There will probably be other paper choices down the road, and these inksets are bound to improve -- there's just too much riding on their success. Also, I wholeheartedly agree with Jon Cone's recent post (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 10:40:22): << One thing to keep in mind is that fluorescent lighting (the type Wilhelm uses for his testing) is very destructive to dyes. If these were tests conducted under tungsten or incandescent or even sunlight - the results would be more acceptable to us. However, there may not be enough money on this planet to pay for this type of testing. RIT for example alots only a small square foot for an approx. $1500 test filtered to specifications. Another thing to keep in mind is that Wilhelm has specific criteria in relation to gray balance fade which almost always is the first failure and results in the rating. The prints are not necessarily faded to the degree that you might envision. What for example would a 20% shift in neutrals look like, while the colors are still strong. Would we find that unacceptable? I imagine some would who are printing fleshtones or gray backgrounds - but others printing bright colors would not notice. Too bad he doesn't produce subjectivity results stating gray balance, reds, blues, and so on. I think that it is important to take these results with a large grain of salt. 450LUX is an enormous amount of illumination. Go into the MOMA or the Metropolitan Museum of Art and look at their works on paper galleries - at 50-75LUX. This is only a small percentage of the 450LUX Wilhelm uses. Wilhelom also uses 12 hours of illumination a day. 12 hours over 8 hours is 50% additional light torture. What if your works were illuminated at 200LUX 8 hours per day, 5 days a week... instead of 7 - and so on..... Think about the conditions his tests suggest. Think about reality. If you can double or triple the life by reducing the illumination to an office for example (about 100 to 200LUX at the walls) or in an interior part of a home which typically lights only at night and in the mornings above 70LUX and so on..... the rating would be many fold the WIlhelm rating. Consequently - if you put up in a stroefront - you would reduce it to a few weeks or days. >> [End of the Jon Cone quote] Jon and I are both disappointed and a little overwhelmed by the weak showing of the 6-color inks (Lysonic or Fotonic). Wilhelm had warned us over 10 months ago that diluting the Magenta and Cyan dyes to make the light magenta and light cyan inks for the 2 addition colors was producing quite fugitive preliminary results -- but I had now idea it would turn out this bad. I'm wondering if the MIS Archival inks may be a better 6-color solution for the meantime. Here is my theory and real-world test results: Theory: Diluting organic dyes appears to weaken the dye's resistance to fading. Would a diluted pigment (i.e. the MIS dye-pigment hybrid) be less fugitive due to its more inert nature? It is also known that pigments are less susceptible to chemical reactions with various paper coatings. Test results: We have a giclee print in our gallery that has been under 9 months of 350 lux (9 hours, 5 days a week) of quartz halogen lighting. It was printed on Somerset Velvet Radiant White, with 6-color MIS Archival inks, using an Epson Photo EX. 75% of the print is made of pastel and delicate tones. See: http://www.tssphoto.com/gallery/021999.pix/stan.html Any fading would be easy to see in comparison to a second print that is in dark storage, yet no noticeable fading has occurred. A similar print with Epson OEM inks showed noticeable fading (a major shift in color) after only one month. We recently printed two giclee prints on Somerset Velvet with the 6-color Lysonic E inkset, using the same Photo EX printer. See: http://www.tssphoto.com/gallery/091799.pix/bair1.html http://www.tssphoto.com/gallery/091799.pix/bair4.html These two prints show noticeable light magenta fading (after only two months), producing an ugly green cast in the midtones and highlights. Both prints were displayed under the same gallery lighting conditions as the MIS inkset print. BTW, the MIS archival inks have been available for the 1200 for over a month now. <http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/archival_inks/mis_inks.html> The preliminary test results with RIT are fairly impressive: http://www.missupply.com/store.cgi?page=fading.html Royce Bair, Director royce@tssphoto.com The Stock Solution - "Inkjet Art Solutions" Division http://www.InkjetArt.com/ Sincerely, Royce Bair, Director THE STOCK SOLUTION Photo Agency royce@tssphoto.com http://www.tssphoto.com/ Phone: 801-363-9700 Fax: 801-363-9707 Salt Lake City, UT 84101 U.S.A. ---------------------------------------------------------- - Turn off HTML mail features. Keep quoted material short. Use accurate subject lines. http://www.leben.com/lists for list instructions. - Turn off HTML mail features. Keep quoted material short. Use accurate subject lines. http://www.leben.com/lists for list instructions.